Round 2, in which I am threatened to be called fat and ugly *GASP* in public!
A continuation from yesterday, formatted just as poorly:
“How is discussion harmful?”
Discussion is harmful when the participants are not willing to move
even the tiniest little bit from their pre-formed opinion. Nothing I
ever say will make you reconsider that maybe the demon huntress in
Diablo 3 isn’t the worst attack on women ever. Thus there is no
“discussion”, there is only shouting at each other.Look at it that way: I have an opinion on the demon huntress in Diablo
3. I write that opinion on my blog. In response you write me and tell
me that you will never again read my blog, in spite of the chance that
the same subject turns up again being rather slim. Does that sound
like an example of rational discussion, of logic to argue one’s point
to you? It sure doesn’t to me. Just because I don’t find high heels
all that offensive, you think of me as a chauvinist pig. You never
asked my opinion for example what depictions of women I *do* find
offensive, or ever considered whether some other target would be more
worth attacking than a fantasy game.
Let’s see, painting subtleties with broad strokes, talking only in extremes, inserting words into the other’s mouth, and even a quick dash of “oh, I’m the victim here!”. Man, this guy could be a poster child for poor debate techniques (or, alternately, a perfect model for the state of a lot of modern American political arguments). I sent him back a link to this article on Kotaku about nerds and male privilege, in the hopes that he’d recognize himself in it. I got back:
Another proof that you aren’t interested in actually having a
discussion on the specific argument of “the high heels of the demon
huntress in Diablo 3″. You just think that by throwing a mega-ton of
general “sexism is bad” links at me, you are making a point. But you
are just blindly preaching a religion. And as I already *know* that
sexism is bad, and am leading a very enlightened life of equal rights
for men and women both in my private life and my work life, I’m
completely the wrong target for your preaching.Personally I am disgusted by how TERA depicts women, especially that
race that looks definitively underage. High heels in Diablo 3? Really
not an issue compared to the general standard.
So who’s playing sexism scorecard bingo? We’ve got the “there are bigger issues” square right there. Also, research and feminism are religions! I’m going to put that down on the next census.*
Well, I was trying to back up my position with references, which is something that’s generally done in logical arguments, and then thought since you wouldn’t read any of the other things, perhaps something from a major gaming site like Kotaku would be good, especially since it’s discussing the exact statements you’ve been using.
Let’s break it down:1) You stated there is no pressure for women to look a certain way. I provided not just my own experience, but links to studies and first-person accounts of this. Then you said it’s all the fault of women, and never answered when I asked if you really thought there were almost no men involved. You never gave me anything to back up your assertion that there is no pressure, either. So is there pressure, or isn’t there? If there isn’t, prove it. Prove all these women are lying, and all the medical studies about the causes of eating disorders are wrong.2) Why do you think that wanting better character designs is the end of free speech? I never said high heels were the worst attack on women ever. My issue was – if you read my first email – that I was insulted by your comments, which imply that I am somehow not allowed to take issue with this. I did say that I find the heels, specifically, more obnoxious from an artistic perspective; this is about the larger issue, which you have been dismissing with the same statements that are discussed in that Kotaku article.3) You have yet to respond to the point that male avatars are power fantasies for men, and female avatars are sexual fantasies for men, and how this tends to make women less likely to play games.4) All targets are worth attacking. I do what I can, where I can.
5) Why shouldn’t games be allowed to tackle larger issues, like gender or politics? Games, like all art, can be a reflection of life as a whole, and those are things that are part of life. Ignoring them doesn’t make them go away.6) Yes, TERA female costuming is obnoxious. Glad we agree on that.7) Just to be clear, you did mean that the *discussion* about gay characters is disgusting, right, and not the fact that there *are* gay characters? That’s how I read it, but I’d like to know if you meant the latter. Why is the discussion puke-worthy?Why are you so afraid that by giving women what they want, you’ll lose what you want (which, if your blog is any indication, is solid gameplay)? There really is a middle ground between hooker outfits and burqas, and I want you to see that. It’s the point where you still get attractive men and women *without* implying that the woman’s only value is as a sex object – or that women who want to have that middle ground are trying to mind-control you.You like what you like. I like what I like. Why am I not allowed to want more of what I like in games? Variety is the spice of life, or so they say.
Spoiler alert: he never addresses any of those points. Instead, he came back with this:
Okay, to break down my points to the absolute minimum:
1) Women in games should be modestly dressed.
2) There is no one, true, absolute scientific measure of what “modestly” is.
3) In absence of a scientific measure of modesty, the general
consensus of the real world should be applied. There is an argument to
be made how fantasy could be less modest than the real world, but if
not, fantasy certainly should be not *more* modest than a real world
professional setting.4) Women can and do wear high heels in business situations without
that being considered immodest.5) Thus the demon huntress high heels meet the real world’s standard
for modesty.6) Demanding higher standards of modesty from fantasy games than from
a business meeting is oppressive.
You know, there are some decent points in there. Maybe we’re getting somewhere. OH LOOK HE FOUND OUT I POSTED THIS AND NOW HIS TRUST IS VIOLATED.
It would be extremely easy for me to take quotes from your mail like
“I’m about 220″, add some comments, and make you look like a fat, ugly
girl who can’t stand the look of better looking females in games on my
blog in front of thousands of readers. But of course I would never do
that, because private e-mail is private. That you have to stoop so low
to score a point as to publish private e-mail on your blog means, by
the Marquess of Queensberry rules of internet discussions, that I won
the argument.
The subject of that email was “I guess I win.” As if the entire dialogue about sexism in gaming can be “won” by one dude and his blog. The “win” condition here is that there is no more sexism. Oh, and he’s trying to prove how awesome he is by NOT posting how fat and ugly I am, because being fat and ugly makes my arguments worthless.
HEY, INTERNET. I’M FAT AND UGLY AND BISEXUAL AND HISPANIC AND A GAMER AND A KIND OF ACCEPTABLE WRITER AND AN ANIME FAN AND A LARPER. None of those things make my opinions or arguments worth less than anyone else’s. None of them.
>>Okay, to break down my points to the absolute minimum:>>1) Women in games should be modestly dressed.
Mostly I agree, unless they are portrayals of a character that actually *is* using sex somehow to get what she wants (a prostitute, a femme fatale, etc.). Adventuring heroes should look like adventuring heroes.>>2) There is no one, true, absolute scientific measure of what “modestly” is.
This is true, but like the line in the steampunk community that goes, “I can’t define what steampunk is, but I know it’s not Barry White”, there are some things that are pretty obviously not to most people.>>3) In absence of a scientific measure of modesty, the general
consensus of the real world should be applied. There is an argument to
be made how fantasy could be less modest than the real world, but if
not, fantasy certainly should be not *more* modest than a real world
professional setting.Sure, sounds good.>>4) Women can and do wear high heels in business situations without
that being considered immodest.Some heels, yes. There are a number of heels out there that are definitely not appropriate for work. For example, these are a popular style of work shoe these days:These are not appropriate:>>5) Thus the demon huntress high heels meet the real world’s standard
for modesty.Perhaps the shoes alone, but the whole package must be considered. I’m going to assume you’re a man who does not spend a lot of time observing or wearing women’s shoes, as that is the vast majority of men (also you didn’t say anything about how you wear heels like that to work), so you may not know this: a black stiletto heel can take on vastly different meanings depending on the outfit. With a suit, it’s powerful and professional. If you are wearing a tiny little leather outfit, they become what are colloquially called “fuck-me shoes”.>>6) Demanding higher standards of modesty from fantasy games than from
a business meeting is oppressive.Perhaps, but in this case, I am not demanding a higher standard of modesty from fantasy games than a business meeting. I am demanding something setting- and job-appropriate from a character design that starts out in leather underwear and fuck-me shoes, something that does not play into and encourage the already extremely negative, sexist portrayal of women in gaming and other media.Now, I have replied to your points; I would be particularly interested in your response to points #1 and #3, as they are particularly salient to this subject. Ignoring them doesn’t make them go away.>>>It would be extremely easy for me to take quotes from your mail like“I’m about 220″, add some comments, and make you look like a fat, uglygirl who can’t stand the look of better looking females in games on myblog in front of thousands of readers. But of course I would never dothat, because private e-mail is private. That you have to stoop so lowto score a point as to publish private e-mail on your blog means, bythe Marquess of Queensberry rules of internet discussions, that I wonthe argument.
And if you did that, I think I get bingo on the sexist argument scorecard, so I win, too! I’ll have to double-check. Oh, drat, one square off.
If you want to call me fat and ugly on your blog in front of thousands of readers, go ahead. I wouldn’t have put that kind of information out there if I cared if people found out. Nothing is private on the internet, especially when it concerns a purposely-public venue like a blog. It doesn’t change the overall problem of sexism in gaming, which even the thin, pretty girls who meet society’s most common standard of beauty are not immune to.Nor is there modesty on the internet. But it happens that I feel as
strongly about privacy as you do about modesty. So as you breached my
trust, this will be my last mail to you.
Oh, for the record? Claiming that because a woman is fat and ugly, her arguments have less merit, IS SEXIST. Using the threat that others might think so IS SEXIST. Your attitude is not as “enlightened” as you believe.
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*Actually, that’s not a bad idea…
Tagged with: fat and ugly • feminism • gaming • I once won a trophy for internet debate • video gaming